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, the first appearance was with judge marianne boulder and she was there to review his miranda rights with him, among other things. you've been hearing a lot about miranda rights. there's issue at play here that need to be clarified. we're going to read a couple of the things said from the hearing. we have the transcript. the judge said, quoting here, you have been charged with one use of a weapon often mass destruction and malicious destruction of property resulting in death. the case is being prosecuted in part by william weinreb. the maximum penalty on each count is death or imprisonment for any terms of years, or life. and there was this finding from the judge, and this one is important. quote, i find that the defendant is alert, mentally competent, and lucid. he is aware of the nature of the proceedings. okay? so that is the basis for the discussion. joined by retired superior court judge isaac borenstein in boston. he's done hospital visits over his 22 years as a judge. let us begin with the idea, confusion and frustration about miranda rights. give them right away, if you don't give the
, this investigation still very much continuing. justice departments saying the suspect will not be read his miranda rights. they are invoking the public safety exception. it's allowed in cases of immediate danger. meanwhile mccain and lindsay graham said dzhokhar tsarnaev should be treated as a potential enemy combatant. they said now that the suspect is in custody is the last thing we should want is for him to remain silent. under a law of war we can hold the suspect to a enemy combatment not entitled to miranda warnings or the appointment of counsel. the older brother, he was killed on friday, and they investigated him at the request of a foreign government, and they did not find any ties to terrorism. and we are joined from london by a counterterrorism expert, and mike sullivan here is a former acting director of the bureau of tobacco, firearms and explosives. let's start with you in london, will. the fbi talked to this man in 2011. it does beg the question, did they miss something when they talked to tamerlan tsarnaev? >> well, it's always very difficult to say. however, having said that, if yo
given all that's transpired over the last week. >> he was not read his miranda rights which a lot of people are talking about today. explain the reason why. >> well, in the law there's what they have called a public safety exception to miranda. everybody knows what miranda is. you have the right to remain silent. anything you say can and will be used against you. the police don't have to say that to you if they are in hot pursuit of something relating to public safety. maybe worried about bombs in this case. they're worried about another plot or something else happening. so under those circumstances authorities do not have to give the miranda warning immediately to a suspect. a lot of people out there saying on the right that they ought not give miranda rights or any other kinds of rights to people who are deemed terrorists. people on the left saying you ought to use the regular court to try to try these individuals. this is an ongoing debate about the law in this country. >> let's talk about the penalty that the younger suspect may face. we're still waiting for charges to be file
are not reading his miranda rights and what this means for you, when we come back. mb luck? or good decisions? ones i've made. ones we've all made. about marriage. children. money. about tomorrow. here's to good decisions. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. ready to plan for your family's future? we'll help you get there. your doctor will say get smart about your weight. that's why there's glucerna hunger smart shakes. they have carb steady, with carbs that digest slowly to help minimize blood sugar spikes. [ male announcer ] glucerna hunger smart. a smart way to help manage hunger and diabetes. [ children laughing ] ♪ ...is the smell of salt in the air. ♪ it's the sound a seashell makes. [ seagulls calling ] away...is a place that's beyond your imagination, yet well within your means. find your away. for a dealer and the rv that's right for you, visit gorving.com. >>> usa! usa! usa! usa! usa! usa! usa! >> that was the streets of boston and surrounding towns last night, clearly people so excited that
before they read miranda rights. this would have falln in the category you can't use this in court but this is what we needed to know if it was more substantive or is that unclear? >> it's not clear whether he provided this information before or after he was read his miranda rights. i don't know. . i know, this is according to a government source, what he has told them in the preliminary investigations. >> jake tapper, thank you very much. obviously significant information there. new information from jake tapper. i want to bring in our panel live tonight. seth jones associate director of the security defense policy center at the rand corporation. former member of the joint terrorism task force and jeffrey toobin our legal analyst. jake is saying -- this is significant in terms of the information in this. but obviously a crucial question out there which is was it obtained before or after those miranda rights were read? >> the irony here is what he is saying is not particularly helpful to him. what would be helpful to him is if he had a conspiracy he could make the government to make
to not or blank or turned his head. if it was given prior to the reading of his miranda rights, it would probably be unlikely they would use that against him in court. if it was used voluntarily afterwards, likely he would. about the fact he has lawyered up, most likely we could send the information probably came prior to his reading of the miranda rights. we don't know that right now. >> thank you very much indeed. an extraordinary court session took place inside his hospital room. a transcript of that hearing tonight that tells us about the accused bomber and the case. jason, tell us what happens, it is fascinating. >> it really is and it is an nine page transcript we got hold of. what i can tell you is this proceeding lasted about ten or 15 minutes, started about 11:30 this morning. all of the key figures came into the hospital room and all of them introduce themselves. you had the u.s. judge there and attorneys from both sides. a court reporter there as well. and everyone present wanted to make sure that he knew exactly what was going on, know about the charges that he is facing. let me read
negotiation with the fbi he gives himself up. >> right. >> they arrest him. they don't read him his miranda rights. explain. >> i'm not great on this. my understanding with the fbi and the federal authorities is that it's a terrorist act that they don't get certain rights that the rest of us would be afforded. they wanted to make sure that if we did speak with him that he wouldn't be given his miranda rights and something else kicked in. he was just -- >> you were told this in advance. if you found the guy, your officers are not going to read him his miranda rights. >> this never played out. there was no interviewing at the scene. he needed aid. >> he was in no position to talk. >> exactly. >> he was a very weak -- did he mumble anything? did he say anything? did he give any political statements? >> my understanding is he didn't have anything to say. i don't know for sure. >> what about during the 20-minute negotiation with the fbi when they were working out his surrender? did he make any statements that could be useful? >> no. i'm not aware of any statements. i think it was more he was fin
be charged as early as today. investigators have not read him his miranda rights unwhat they call the public safety exception clause. so they may use any information he reveals as evidence in court. let's bring in christopher tritico, he defended the oklahoma city bomber, timothy mcveigh. christopher, thanks very much for coming in. he is a u.s. citizen. he was -- he received his naturalized citizenship last september 11th, of all dates. he's obviously in a hospital. crime was committed in the united states. if they don't read him his miranda rights right away, you okay with that? >> well, look. i think the public safety exception is being greatly and overly expanded in this instance. the public safety exception as the supreme court laid out is for an instance when an officer walks up on a situation and sees an empty holster and says where's your gun. that's to prevent an imminent threat from happening right then. what they are doing now is really expanding that public safety exception to say really the fifth amendment applies when they say it does and i don't think the supreme court is goin
analyst. the 19-year-old has not been read his miranda rights. why does this matter what has it allowed for? what is the issue here? >> a lot of variables here, the question is he in any kwan condition to answer questions with or without miranda? what is his health situation? also, even if he doesn't get miranda warnings, he may decline to answer questions in any case. they can't force him to answer questions, but if he does not receive miranda warnings and if he then anticipates questions those answers cannot be used in a criminal case against him. they can be used for intelligence gathering. they can be used if there are other conspirators who may be prosecuted, can't be used against him. other evidence can be used against him. may be lots of other evidence. if you don't get miranda warnings, your statements i can't be used against you. >> so this is a sensitive issue. another sensitive issue raised by republican senators, lindsey graham, kelly ayotte, peter king, they released a statement, the suspect, based upon his actions, clearly is a good candidate for enemy combat tant status.
be charged as early as today. investigators did not read him his miranda rights when he was captured. they invoked what they call the public safety exception. it permits law enforcement officials to interrogate a suspect and use that information as direct evident in court, and that is causing some controversy out there. let's talk about that. we'll talk about that in a few moments. also want to talk about other issues. joining us, former u.s. attorney doug jones who led the prosecutor against eric ruduffel, the 1996 atlanta olympic bomber. thank you for joining us. first of all, let's talk about this video. this video that has now surfaced that cnn has confirmed, a well known jihadist in dagestan who himself was killed in december, the video was posted on tamerlan tsarnaev's youtube channel. since then, it's been deleted. what does that say, if you're a u.s. attorney investigating this case, what does that say to you? >> well, wolf, i think it would be one of two things. there obviously could be some contact since he traveled over that way. there could have been some contact. there c
in the decision. but they detoured not too far over. >> the decision not to read him his miranda rights even though at one point you see him getting out of the boat, in that picture he is conscience. how did that decision come about? >> this is a federal case involving a terrorism situation and i was not aware that in the federal system there can be a removal or a discontinuation of miranda rights in emergency situations. so that's exactly what happened. the united states attorney's office advised us not to administer miranda rights. we gave that information out to our officers and i think all law enforcement was operating under those rules of engagement. >> back to the apartment real quickly. there were devices found in the apartment but you can't comment on what? >> no, i didn't say that. i can't comment on any evidence that was found there. sglp anything that was found in the apartment. are you confident that these two were acting alone and that there are no more suspects out there? >> i'm confident that they were the two major actors in the violence that occurred. i am very, very sure th
of public safety exception before you give him his miranda rights, all that talk of naming him as an enemy combatant, all of that is moot right now. they've gone forward with the official proceedings. >> well, they may have used the public safety exception, and apparently they were using it to question him, and he responded in some way given his medical condition. but certainly now that he has a lawyer, that period, however long it was, is over. and you're right, the enemy combatant thing was a nonstarter from the never going to happen. this is a criminal case in federal court in massachusetts, and that's where it will stay until it's resolved one way or another. >> it's going to take a while. thanks very much, jeffrey. much more on what's going on in this boston investigation coming up here in "the situation room" 0. >>> also, another terror plot released today, new information. canadian authorities announcing the arrest of two men believed to be part of a terror plot to attack a passenger train that may have been heading towards the united states, the plot said to have an alleged connect
-called public safety exception to the miranda rule where for some period of time, it's not entirely clear how long, a suspect can be questioned without miranda warnings and that apparently is what's happening here. again, it's complicated somewhat by the fact that we didn't know exactly what tsarnaev's medical condition is and how many questions he can answer. apparently he's answering some questions in writing. so i don't really see lindsey graham's proposal as all that differentwhat's going on now. he seems to suggest a longer process of questioning him, but the obama administration has also committed to some period of questioning. now, this all assumes that he's willing to answer questions. can he always samp simply say it answering questions and there is no way either under enemy combatant rules or in the criminal justice system to force someone to answer questions who doesn't want to answer them. >> the argument i guess is under this limited questioning period before he is formally advised of his miranda rights, he has and right to an attorney, doesn't have to answer any questions. there
but the fbi are saying there are enough further threats to justify an exception to miranda. there are a lot of interesting issues. his youth, the fact that he seems to be very much influenced by his brother. he could probably hold out and get a deal if he's prepared to say whether his brother got training in chechnya. >> since mccain and graham said they want the enemy combatant for these kind of suspects. >> impossible. there's no way an american city committing a dough mystic crime. it couldn't happen. it shows absolute ignorance of the law. >> in terms of this revolution, you have two brothers who has committed this appalling act. the younger one in particular, seems to be leading a very important life. does that concern you? that there could be many more out there? >> you know what else concerns me, you don't want to be critical of what l.a. did. the fact that one hmong man could close down an anner city, get baseball kids postponed, you can imagine another kid saying i want that as well. people are easily influenced by previous spurns, older brothers and authority figures. >> how do yo
dzhokhar tsarnaev to investigators, we do not know if that was before or after he received his miranda warnings or before or after he obtained counsel. that's an excellent point. one of the things we do know that he is saying apparently is that it was his brother tamerlan who was the mastermind here. is that something that could be helpful to his defense if he was merely following his brother? >> well, it will be helpful to his defense in the sense of mitigating the penalty that he might end up suffering. from what i've read and what i've seen, he's clearly as culpable as his brother. the videos that they picked up, and the statements that he made to the driver of the suv, all would indicate that he was a willing participant in this crime, and also the fact that he fled from the scene would further indicate his willingness to participate in this crime. however, any influence that he might have suffered from his brother, his brother's influence on him, may again go to mitigate any penalty that might be imposed upon him. whether he ends up getting the death penalty or whether he ends up
, let me come over to you, a lot of talk about miranda. but give me a sense of what the leeway is especially in situations like this, after acts like what happened here at the marathon. >> well, it is yesterday's news. he's been given his miranda warnings and probably anything he said without his miranda warnings is not going to be needed by the government or the prosecution. remember, they did not indict him as a terrorist, that's very important. they indicted him as an ordinary murderer, anybody who wants to kill their mother-in-law, business partner and makes an improvised explosive device and kills them is just as guilty under the statute indicted as osama bin laden might be. this is not a terrorist prosecution. they don't have to prove intent to terrorize, intent to intimidate. they can prove their case just through the videotapes. now, i predict there are going to be two types of possible defenses in this case. number one, the jihad defense. i did it, i'm proud, i'm happy, please kill me, i want to join my brother in paradise. i'm a martyr. the other, my brother made me d
was provided before or after that judge/magistrate was there and r read him his miranda rights? the right to remain silent and the right to have an attorney? >> sources have indicated to us that was part of a questioning that they did under the -- fbi agent does under a national security exemption, before he was assigned counsel. they had the ability in the interest of public safety exception to be able to ask questions, were there additional coconspirators, where and were there additional explosives. the source of things you want to know immediately in order to protect the public. presumably base wanted on what we are hearing, those are the questions they asked and the kinds of responses prior to the first appearance yesterday. >> that would fit in with the public safety exception in the there a in providing the miranda rights to this criminal defendant as he now is, charges have been read to him. fran, we'll stay in close touch with you, fran townsend. much more from boston in just a moment. other news that we're watching as well. the fbi, back in washington, up on capitol hill, lawmake
a former federal prosecutor. we now that dzhokhar, suspect number two, has been read his miranda rights. sow won't be designated as an enemy combatant. but if he was labelled an enemy combatant, he wouldn't have been entitled to a lawyer and a jury trial. they could have asked him a lot of other questions without a lawyer present that may or may not be relevant to national security. now why did they make this decision not to go for enemy combatant status? do they think they have so much evidence in this case that they can go ahead with the civilian jury trial and they don't need to hide behind enemy combatant? >> i think that is certainly part of it. it does look like an overwhelming body of evidence. more than that, they thought they could get the immediate information they needed by the miranda exception, the public safety exception so they could make sure the public was safe. there accident seem to be an constitution aal basis to treat someone that commits a crime like this on our soil. the supreme court has upheld treating an american, the american taliban hamdi captured in afghanis
to answer this first, chris. let's talk about miranda here and the fact that his rights have not been read to him. what do you make of that? will that be an issue going forward in this particular case? >> you know, it depends. first, i don't know -- we don't know if he's said anything. if he hasn't made any statements at all, the fact that he didn't get his miranda rights read is not going to be an a relevant issue. if he's made statements i think what the government is doing in expanding that public safety exception beyond the immediacy of the act i think is something that will be taken up, and it will have to be looked at maybe by the u.s. supreme court who just last week heard oral argument in the case from houston that was asking the question when does the fifth amendment or when does your right to remain silent gyp, and so we're already looking at these issues. this is an expansion i think that expands the public safety exception. i think some court is going to have to look at that. >> thank you very much. it's been almost a week now since this city was terrorized, and it's seemingly
are told he had not been given his miranda rights. do you have any sense of whether he has this morning or how soon it will be before he does receive them? >> the -- the decision not to read miranda rights was made by the federal officials. this is a unique clause to the terrorism law that we've not dealt with at the local level before. so, we are standing by and watching that at this point in time to see how that develops. but, the lawyers are involved in the decision, and certainly we're very anxious to talk to him, and the investigators will be doing that as soon as possible. >> commissioner over the weekend i heard you say you believe you found evidence your offices did you believe that these brothers were planning some kind of another attack, or at least prepared for it. tell us about that. >> the two suspects were armed with handguns at the scene of the shoot-out. and there were multiple explosive devices, including a large one that was similar to the pressure cooker device that was found on boylston street. i saw that with my own eyes. i believe that the only reason that someone
the question this is exactly the whole issue going back to the miranda, if he had the public safety concern of what were those explosive devices intended for? that's one of the reasons they wanted to talk to him or one of the things thaw wanted to talk to him about at the time before they realized how severely hurt he was. it absolutely proves the point there could have more more attacks planned or another person who was a part of it who maybe at the last minute didn't do it. another reason to think there was more planned is maybe that's why they didn't kill themselves at the time of the marathon attack. they wanted to live to attack another day. >> jeff, somebody must have trained them. can you learn to build a bomb by yourself just by going to the internet and going out there, go to a home depot and buying this kind of stuff? >> you could try to learn, but what you would certainly want to do is rehearse. you don't want to go through the operational energy that it would take to mount an attack like at the marathon without having a fair degree of confidence that your device is going to work
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